High Medieval Church and Society Lecture
Lisa M. Lane 2008
Creative Commons License
The text and audio by Lisa M. Lane is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 License.

Lisahistory: The High Medieval Church


[ Singing ]

>> What do you think?

>> It's gorgeous but you can't dance to it correct?

>> You can ballet to it.

>> Yeah it would be highly interpretive.

[ Singing ]

[ inaudible ]

>> It would be in Church.

>> In Church.

>> At a performance.

>> This particular number was written by Saint Hildegard, she was a composer as well as the music and she wrote this and recovered from in Church, yeah.

>> How old is this piece?

>> That's an old Anglo-Saxon [inaudible], it doesn't go back as far, I believe it's 6 months after she [inaudible].

[ Singing ]

[ Inaudible ]

>> And they're Latin.

>> Ok.

>> So yeah, so there is an actual.

>> Well they, yes, and you can find translations for these but they are songs because they are songs. They're meant to be songs. The language is always going to be Latin and the message is always going to be what do you think?

>> God.

>> About God, about Jesus, about spirituality, about faith so a lot of music that would be written to be sung in the Churches, in the monasteries, and by monastery I mean both the monastic houses that were all men and monastic houses that were all women with the, on similar subjects and they're also designed as a meditative environment for focusing the mind on spiritual healing so they are in and of themselves a lot of this music is designed to be mystical in the sense that it's designed to provide focus for the mind in order to be able to pray with the whole heart and soul. So, it's designed to sound that kind of other worldly way on purpose in order to try to get you to that meditative, what we would now call that meditative place, ok, so there's are a lot of different purposes to the music, but it is not sit around sing social music that's not. There is a lot of that in the middle ages as well. I didn't bring any examples of it today but I'll talk about them a little bit because there is a whole popular music culture going on at the same time. This would be spiritual music, Church music. Now one of the most important things to understand about the medieval period is that they don't have and I think we saw this, I tried to talk a little bit about this when we looked at the document of Wie Bear [assumed spelling] getting his sight back, that we've got this idea that the religion and ordinary life aren't really separate in the same way that we separate them now. I think the most difficult thing to understand about the middle ages is that, just that. As Americans we're brought up in this whole political tradition of the separation of Church and state and we tend to take it for granted this sort of idea and when we hear about people combining state and religion we get real nasty feelings about that because we get a feeling of imposition that religion is a massive organizational thing that is being imposed on our personal beliefs and our personal political activity so Americans tend to have more difficulty than Europeans understanding that for hundreds and hundreds of years Western society had those two things melded pretty comfortably. Yes.

>> [Inaudible].

>> It's the official Church and people still go, you know, but in a lot of ways Western Europe has become now, today, even more secular than the United States has become and so even though they have all these Churches in their midst and the Anglican Church is still a social place to meet where you go through the rituals of worship of God and people would say yes I believe in this up to a point, you know, there is a very secular movement going on there and there's actually concern about that on the part of the Catholic Church, on the part of the Anglican Church that what that represents. Here we tend to split and a group tends to go more towards the spiritual stuff and another group tends to go more towards the secular and it's not, but it never was melded together in quite the same way because when this country was founded there were these ideals that were set up to separate them in the first place so it's not very surprising that Americans do this differently. The difficulty though when teaching about the middle ages is that it's harder to teach it to American students than it is to European students because Europeans have this understanding that at one time these were together but that we have gone through an enlightenment and we've gone through scientific understands and we've chosen to separate that. American students because we've had our country, you know, invented in the last 300 years, we come into the program with it separated and it's more difficult to see them together so it's not a situation where you have somebody saying well I am religious. In fact the very idea of being religious wouldn't make any sense to anybody in the middle ages. If you went back and talked to them and said are you a religious person and that would probably mean to them, I mean, do I work for the Church, am I a Monk, am I a Friar, am I am Bishop, no, then I guess I'm not religious but you know I pray a lot and I go to a Church and I, you know, get the sacraments. They wouldn't understand the separation that we have so for that reason I've titled this lecture Culture and Society and the religious aspects of it are very much intermingled because that's how they would have been at the time. Religion was not a separate thing, it was just part of daily culture, part of daily life, not something different so a couple places though we have to talk about it separately in a political sense because the Church itself is a political organization, it has a great deal of power right, so they get separated by even then politics and religion is somewhat together. This is the organization of this medieval Church and you'll remember I said last time and even when we were talking about the fall of Western Rome that the Church thought of itself as being the international power in Europe and we saw earlier in the middle ages during what your book calls Late Antiquity this idea Paul rose to the top of the system and becomes the main guy in the Western Church, the Church that is centered in Rome. So I've got the Pope at the top. He was originally 1 of 4 Bishops but the other 3 were in the Eastern Roman Empire, what became the Byzantine Empire and so they became absorbed into the Greek Orthodox Church and you only had one Bishop in the west and that guy was in Rome and that is how he got the power he got. We saw how Gregory I took that power and what he did with it.

>> I know about Constance but who would the others be [Inaudible].

>> I'm not sure, there's one Damaskas, and I can't remember the...

>> There's one [inaudible].

>> I don't think [inaudible] in Jerusalem, I'd have to look that up. I don't know who the other 3 were. They were trying to scatter them but they didn't do that the best way. I think we can look that up. We've got one left in the West and that is how he gets his authority because he's the only Bishop left in Rome and gradually the Eastern Church breaks away from the Western Church and he's on his own and can rightfully claim because we saw that even during the time of Sharmonites, Europe is very much divided among all these dramatic roots that he's really the only international power. This is the way the Church is structured. We know some of this already from studying Church structure last week. We know this kind of green highlighted line here how the organization goes. Pope on top and he administers the Arch Bishops who administer the Bishops, who administer the Priests and that we've already talked about but the other aspect of this that we need to talk about a little more are the Curia, a group of Cardinals they're called that advises the Pope. They stay in Rome and in fact we'll see next week that when they move out of Rome, bad things happen. So they're supposed to be a group that advises the Pope. They are his administrators. They are his bureaucracy.

>> So they're appointed by the Pope?

>> They're appointed by the Pope and they are this little group that their whole purpose is advising the Pope. It's kind of interesting when Cardinals appear elsewhere having been named by the Pope and get positions sometimes with other Kings which really starts to happen lately, you know, after this course is over, 17th Century. It's an unusual thing. Cardinals are supposed to be advising the Pope. That's their main job. They also elect the Pope so when a Pope dies and they have to determine who it's going to be, it's usually a cardinal from their home Church. Sometimes an Arch Bishop, usually a Cardinal. So that's that side but the other side is where we get here in talking about medieval culture what most people, most people would have had contact with their Parish Priest and that's probably about it for most people and the other people they would have known about, would be people in the monasteries and the Friars in the town. These are independent boarders who are given the ok, they are approved by the Pope. They go directly to the Pope to get approval. Francis, Dominic, the 4 Friars they went to the Pope to get sanctioned for preaching. If they hadn't done that, if they just run around preaching whenever they wanted, how would the Pope have seen them, how would the Church have seen them?

>> Heretics.

>> Heretics, exactly. They would have been seen as heretics. Particularly if they were preaching something that was unusual, something that didn't fit with the orthodocsy, they would be seen as heretics and let's talk about why the Church was so into creating new Orders during this time. But the important thing to remember is that the old Orders were the monasteries, those are the ones that the Papacy had approved many hundreds of years ago in some cases and as new monasteries emerged they would get the approval from the Pope. Monasteries are, they try to stay away from civilization at first. It sort of follows them. We have a little bit about Clooney [assumed spelling] in this chapter. That was one of the monasteries that tried to get away from everything and go out there somewhere and then was a victim of its own success. A lot of these monasteries, particularly the ones run by the Benedictine had this work ethic that said that the monks were supposed to work, manual labor, very hard and as a result they cleared land and they planted grapes and they sold the monasteries' wine and they made a ton of money and that was not kind of what they were starting out to do but it's what a lot of them ended up doing anyway and having their own powercentrics in these monasteries as a result of their wealth. So a monastery is run by either an Abbott in the case of male monasteries or an Abbett in the case of female monasteries. A lot of those have been around for a long time. What's new for the whole Church structure here is Friars. Friars were a brand new thing in the era that you're reading about, the [inaudible]. The Franciscans, the four Friars, the Dominicans are orders are Friars who get direct approval from the Pope to do what they're doing. They may create places where they live together but the places are not monasteries, they are not isolated. The entire purpose of the Friars is to be in society, not separate from society. Questions on the structure here and how the Church works? Is this helpful? I sit here [inaudible]. Is this going to make things more clear or more confusing?

>> More clear.

>> It is a little more clear? Ok and you can come back to this of course and look at it.

>> [Inaudible] America?

>> [Inaudible]. You have it in your notes. You saw the Pope getting power already. In this area of course he gained even more. Now we spoke last time, up in the corner there I've got what we talked about last time which is the increase in Papal power caused by Irving II when he called the first crusade in 1095. Remember why I said that was an increase in his power as opposed to just the powers of the word and guys who joined and went out there. Why would it increase the Pope's power to be the one who called for Crusade.

>> [Inaudible] international [inaudible].

>> Yeah, how is he showing that here?

>> By creating [inaudible].

>> Yeah and he's doing it, is he just taking Italians, just people from around Rome.

>> No, it's all around.

>> Yeah, that's the whole point, so he's taking them from everywhere. This little map shows where the crusaders, the main area the crusaders came from and he's pulling a lot from France. Calling on the relationship that he had ever since Sharlama, you know, with the Frankish people and declaring his international authority by providing this wonderful opportunity for people to go on crusade. That increases Papal power in the late 11th Century. Now in the 12th and into the 13th century I'm going to introduce one particular Pope, Innocent III, he was called the lawyer pope which gives you an idea of like his mindset right. A highly political person and he developed a couple of techniques over here for controlling secular authority. What is secular authority?

>> Non-religious.

>> Non-religious King, remember the triangle, the triangular tension. The Church is vying for power and then what are the other two groups that are also vying for power during the middle ages?

>> Nobles.

>> Kings, yeah, Kings and Nobles. Ok. So Innocent III is going to make sure that this corner gets a lot of power through these techniques and both of these techniques are designed to control these guys. The first one is interdict. Interdict is where the Pope declared all the Churches in a particular area to close. He said close them and so all the Bishops, Arch-Bishops and Priests have to shut up shop. The doors to the Church are locked until such time as whoever is in charge does what the Pope wants. Now why would anybody care about that, so they closed the Church, big deal. Why would this cause a big problem for the King or Noble they've done this to?

>> I think because the peasants will get mad or the Clergy will get mad in that area and start petitioning the.

>> Yeah, the Clergy can't get mad. The Clergy are in the system. They're the ones that have to close the doors. They take their orders from above so they may not like it but they've got to do it. Why would peasants get angry and people get angry?

>> [Inaudible] they don't like change.

>> They don't like change and I think it's important that they're going everyday and they're praying every day. They see that as being significant enough in their lives that they get very upset.

>> It was also that, the whole idea that God was, God was not favoring a particular nation [inaudible] basically the ultimate, he was almost like a healer, he was the real, he was the country essentially [inaudible] go out and rivers would dry up and that sort of thing so if the Pope was to withdraw in his favor from a ruler people would really think that a ruler was cursed.

>> And especially if he added to the interdict, not just interdicts but the other tools. If you get to a situation like that where the Church wants people to believe that their ruler is evil, you know, is that far, has strayed that far from the real Church then the Pope's other technique is to ex-communicate that particular ruler so this a real bad combination. So the people you're describing who think that the King is some sort of holy figure would be extremely distressed by the idea that their King had been ex-communicated or was being punished by interdicts because he's totally out of line. There were some people who thought that way but I also want you to consider as I asked you to do with the document about Wei Bear [assumed spelling] regaining his sight with Saint Croix [assumed spelling]. The practical consideration. The daily worship consideration. What service would get it from a Churchier economy point of view? What service does the Church provide that only the Church can provide?

>> Salvation.

>> Salvation, through what?

>> God.

>> But how do you get there?

>> [Inaudible] being aware, confessing your sins.

>> Confession is one, there are seven sacraments that you can only access through the Church. You can't get them on your own. That's one of them, confession. Now the ability to confess your sins, right, cleanse yourself of your sins is one way you do what you need to do to get that salvation. Do you know some of the others? Yes.

>> Baptism in your youth.

>> Yes. Baptism. Right. To be able to baptize your child so that if anything happens, high infant mortality at this time, roughly 50% of children would die before they reach a year. You want the child baptized so that if they die, if something happens to them they can go to heaven. Baptism and extremely important if those Church doors are closed your child will not be baptized, that's important. Yes.

>> Last rights.

>> Last rights, yes. Really serious, right. You are dying and you need the Priest to administer last rights to you to ease you on your way to heaven and the Priest can't come because the Church is closed. Your kingdom is under interdict. You personally would feel you are being punished, your soul is being punished for something your idiot King did or your idiot Lord did.

>> Marriage.

>> Marriage, right? Marriage. At this time there was no such thing as civil marriage. All marriage was done within the Church. If you did not marry within the Church, you were considered to not be married period.

>> Could you ask the priest to come to your home?

>> No, they can't provide any prayer services whatsoever. Nothing.

>> Offering?

>> Yes. The whole charity system is based on contributions through the Church. The poor come to the Church to get help. Sorry, it's closed. Ok, you start to see how much social dislocation can happen, how much distress can happen on the part of the people. Ordinary people, not just peasants, not just poor people but everybody in the whole system has their access to God cut off if the Church is closed. This is what interdict is designed to do. It's a very powerful tool. A very good tool and combined with ex-communication, an excellent political tool for getting rid of a local ruler right? I mean if you don't like this guy, if the Pope decides he doesn't like a particular King and is tired of dealing with him, he puts the kingdom under interdict and ex-communicates the King. That gives a political opportunity doesn't it for the Nobles under the King. The possibility of a new King who is more in line with what God wants according to the Church. This is so, I understand what you're saying Andrew about the belief system but I'm not sure how deep seeded it was among most of the people because these seem to me to be very practical considerations.

>> Right.

>> Rather than just spiritual considerations but [inaudible], it's definitely there.

>> It didn't always work though, did it?

>> No, it doesn't always work. Although, you know what, if you look at each time they did it, it eventually works. Sooner or later it wears them down. If you look at John and I want to look at John, poor John, some people hate him. Historians argue all the time about whether he was an evil man or just stupid or mean or whatever. You've seen that Robin Hood, you know the Robin Hood stories. All those legends are based on how nasty King John was before he was even King when he was Prince John and his brother Richard was King and went out on a crusade, King John tried to take everything from everybody. He overtaxed the Nobles, you know, according to the Robin Hood legend, he taxed the people and the peasants and he let his crazy Sheriffs go running around taxing everybody and taking away their stuff. So John is hated everywhere. Well the Nobles hated John, well you know the Nobles hated John because they made him sign magna carte right? They didn't like him anyway and at that time when we talked about magna carte I mentioned the reason they hated him was because he had permitted the loss of a whole bunch of land in France but here's the other reason they hated him. This is a document written by King John because he had to, after years and years of interdict, you know it took a long time for this one to work right, after years of interdict under Innocent III put England under interdict, he had to write this to the Pope. John by the Grace of God, King of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy, etc. by this charter attested by our golden seal we wish it to be known to you all that we offer and freely yield to God and to Saints Peter and Paul and to the Holy Roman Church Our Mother and to our Lord Pope Innocent III and his catholic successors, the whole Kingdom of England and the whole Kingdom of Ireland with all thy rights. What's happened here?

>> He's giving up [inaudible].

>> He's giving up all of his power. He has essentially said, you remember how the futile system works? Do you remember the futilism where he's got the King and then the Lords and then the Knights and the Knights are Basils to the Lords. They have to do what he says and the Lords are Basils to the King. He's essentially saying I am now a Basil of Innocent III. He is now the Overlord of England. I give up my entire Kingdom to him and pledge loyalty and [inaudible] to him. No other King was brought that low, ever and Innocent managed to do that to John. That's the only reason they [inaudible]. He had actually created an Overlord from Rome because he had to give it all up. That was the only way Innocent would let [inaudible] and he did after that. Extraordinary Papel power, and then of course Saint Francis. Saint Francis one of the first Mendicant Orders. Do you know what mendicant means?

>> Begging.

>> Begging, right. Unlike these big wealthy monasteries, Mendicant Orders of Friars do not allow the Order to own anything much less the individual own anything so Friars would beg for their food. They were dependent on the support of the people that they served and they work in the towns. Innocent saw what was happening and I'll say what I mean by that in just a second but he saw a lot of heresy and he saw a lot of town growth and when Francis came to him saying here I've got this great idea. We've got these brothers, you know, we're all brothers in spirit. We're just going to wear plain clothes, go around begging and preaching the word of God and the word of God we're going to preach is the Orthodox, the other Catholic Church, you know is that ok. And Innocent is kind of going well this doesn't really fit anything I've thought of here, it's not really a monastery, it's in the town, if these guys don't really have a place, how am I going to keep control and he had decided to allow it. He said he had a dream. I don't know if you can see this. It's Francis here. The Church is falling down, the Pope is asleep. Innocent III is having this dream that Francis is literally holding up the Church and so he said I had this dream, God told me I need you. You can have your Order. So he is asserting power in so many ways here, right. He is asserting power over Kings. In some cases that power can become very, very literal. The power to create new Orders to respond to circumstances of heresy as he sees them. The power to put an entire Kingdom under interdict or ex-communicate a Ruler to control the place. I mean we are way beyond the investiture of controversy here. It's rather extraordinary power. Questions about this, what the Popes were able to do. Yes?.

>> I've got a few questions on this.

>> Sure.

>> Do you remember how dreams back then, [inaudible] oh I had this crazy dream [inaudible] make something up so there isn't anything wrong?

>> Sometimes. There is a, when you are in a dream state there are parallels there to a state of spiritual meditation so you have a number of people who were missing who would have these dreams. I don't think they were making them up so much as interpreting them in terms of their surroundings right, that's what people do [inaudible].

>> [Inaudible] dream, so that he could get what he wanted.

>> I don't know, maybe he had a dream. I can't. I don't know the Pope said he had a dream. Who am I to say he didn't have a dream. Maybe he did have a dream. You know it wouldn't surprise me because considering how worried he was. You know how you dream about things that are kind of on your mind sometimes.

>> It could have been a daydream.

>> Yeah, it could have been a daydream, could have been an idea, could have been a vision. He didn't say it was a vision though. He didn't know it was vision from God, it's kind of interesting. He said it was a dream. I'm not sure why practically that would work better than I had a, I mean a vision would almost see more, but he's saying no I had this dream and Francis was holding up the Church yet he was worried because of the heresy so maybe, it kind of makes sense, but as with most historical things, the fact that the story got out is more important than whether or not it actually occurred. Whether or not Innocent had a dream is sort of irrelevant. If Innocent used the dream to justify the founding of the Franciscan that seems to just give it more popular strength and it had that so that helped the Franciscans too so I'm sure they were very pleased.

>> Is this Saint Francis the one that wanted to [inaudible]?

>> All the Saints at various times have been depicted with Christ's marks on hands, feet, etc. That happens a lot because it was thought that some Saints would experience stigmata that is spiritual ecstasy where the hands and feet bleed because they've gotten themselves spiritually so close to Jesus.

>> Is that called Nirvana?

>> No, Nirvana is the cessation of all desire. This is different. It has a, it's a similar kind of ecstatic experience but in this particular one there's a physical manifestation of the stigmata so sometimes there'd be reports like a miracle of a Saint having that happen during their lifetime so you do see pictures of that on all the Saints not just Francis.

>> [Inaudible].

>> Yeah, but there's a picture of him as he's usually shown. Francis here with birds. He's shown with birds and animals. He was actually from a town originally, Francis of Assisi. The town of Assisi was a relatively wealthy merchant town and, in fact, his father was an extremely wealthy, I think he was a cloth draper or something and Saint Francis when he had a conversion experience and decided I have had it with all of this, all of his worldly wealth and all of these things that are going on, he took off all of his clothes in the town square and said, you know, these clothes are luxury items, you know, they are unimportant to me as a spiritual human being. I'm just going to wear plain cloth, just regular stuff. That's how they got the robes which they still wear. There's Franciscans all over California because it was the Franciscan group that came over here on behalf of the Church to work as missionaries among the Indians of California all up and down the Spanish El Camino Real so if you want to hang out with some Franciscans just go to [inaudible] and hang out with Franciscans. They still dress just like this. What the need is answering here is the problem of international heresies, much, much bigger than problems of heresies that were dealt with in just a little portion of the Roman Empire. This had gotten out of control. People were coming up with crazy things and some of them were getting these crazy ideas from the trade network. This is kind of ironic I think as a result of the crusades. What happened was the crusades brought Europeans in touch with some of the Eastern forms of religion and I don't just mean the Greek Orthodox stuff, I mean Saints coming in to the Middle East from India and Persia and other places and there were a lot of combination religions out there, some of them dating back to the Hellenistic Period that came over, came across, ideas always travel with people, came back into Europe from the crusaders in the early 12th Century. No they went over there in 1095 within, I don't know, 5-10 years, a lot of ideas start coming back in books and pictures and images and icons and things like that that were not really fitting in with the Catholic Church of Orthodoxy and people started talking about interesting ideas. This is extremely problematic because groups start to form around these interesting ideas and followers start to say, here's one that was always fun, the Church really liked this one. The idea that the Church itself because it is earthly is corrupt and therefore the Church is an impediment to getting close to God. How well do you think that one's going to go over? This is a problem and in towns where you've got concentrations of people. In towns where you've got educated people and merchants and the ideas are coming in. These towns are where this is happening. They're where these ideas are being shared. You know as people hang out together. Market towns particularly where people are exchanging the ideas along with the products and talking about hey I heard about this really interesting religious thing out at Persia, you know, whoa, that sounds really cool to me, that really speaks to me, well it speaks to me too. You know it's going to speak to Joe, let's go talk to him. Maybe we should form a group. These kinds of things are very, very dangerous. Yes.

>> Didn't at one point [inaudible] and had actually buried?

>> Yeah, there are some weird things that happen. The average [inaudible] crusade is a crusade against a whole bunch of these guys in the town of Albi which is actually in Southern France. They go on a crusade. The Pope gathers up crusaders from everywhere to crusade against Europeans. This isn't the infidel over there, this is the infidel here. This is heretics here because that group had taken over a whole town. The whole town of Albi had gone towards a religion and become what they called Safaris, Purists. There are some of these people who believe the Church shouldn't be there at all, that they're in between them and God. Yeah they actually went on a Papal crusade and killed them all. Wiped them out. This is serious stuff. The Pope does not want to be wiping people out. He wants to be persuading people to come back to the true way of the Church and that's what the Franciscans did, that was their job. The Franciscans and the Dominicans in preaching the Orthodoxy among ordinary people, they're working in the towns. They're not out in some monastery away from civilization. They're hanging out with the people talking about God and talking about it from an Orthodox Roman Catholic perspective. That's what the Church wanted. That's why Innocent had his dream, whether he had it or not. He needs these guys in the town talking Orthodox stuff. Making sure that the heresy is kept under control because you don't want to go around killing every European who thinks different, that's not a good plan. But the complexity of the trade roots I think gives you an idea of, all these ideas are just coming in from everywhere and the Church has to deal with those in dealing with people's beliefs and behavior. Some expression of some of those beliefs, again, we can get really spiritual, we can get practical, I tend to lean toward the later. Church is, we're sometimes dealt by a matter of words to provide a place for everybody on the [inaudible] to worship. Prior to the say the 12th century back in the last 2-3 chapters we've been talking about, those Churches would have been in this style, the Romanesque style then later 12th Century, 13th Century we've arrived at towns and Franciscans running around and the Pope doing his interdict thing. We get a completely different style and Churches are being built by towns, in the town, in the middle of the town by the people of the town. Usually the merchant guild who control the town are financing these and this style is called the Gothic style. What's the difference?

>> The arches.

>> The arches are different and, yeah, because the Roman style of arch is kind of rounded at the top, the gothic arch is pointed. Sure. What else?

>> More details.

>> Much more detail on the outside, lot of decorations.

>> [Inaudible].

>> Has more lights.

>> I'm sorry. Light inside yeah, windows. Because of the arch, the rounded arch, the Romenesque arch, the pressure goes right down on the top of the arch and so they've got a big keystone up there to try to handle the pressure but the gothic arch like this distributes the weight of the ceiling there so by going this way they're right down on top of the arch so they're able to build much taller. That means the walls themselves don't have to support the roof so much and so you can have bigger windows and put stained glass in [inaudible].

>> [Inaudible].

>> Very labor intensive and Romanesque Churches were usually built within, you know, 20-30 years.

>> Very long time.

>> Yeah, they take time, yeah, a hundred years sometimes more. So you've got a different vision going here, don't you, of what this building means. If you're willing to build, I mean imagine doing that today. Start building something now that you know is not going to be finished for a hundred years. Can you imagine us even thinking that way?

>> [Inaudible].

>> Exactly, they'd never see the end. They would not live to see the end of their building. They put their whole heart and soul into it. So you've got masons, stain glass workers, the guys who put up the money, the merchant guild, all these people knowing that they will not live to see the end of this project starting this project, I mean what does that say about how they view time?

>> Faith.

>> Yeah, there's a lot of faith, I think, just built into that whole idea right? You're going to be there. It's ok because this thing will be finished in the lifetime of your grandchild. That's, you know, that's really kind of visionary. I don't, we don't do that now. We want our satisfaction now, right now in our lifetime, we want to see it. We built something, we want to see it.

>> [Inaudible].

>> I think so, I was working really fast last night. I've got the sources on the last slide in this. I've got the sources where everything came from but, yeah?

>> I was wondering if this would be somewhere you would hear the music that you played.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that you would also hear it in the Romanesque-style buildings as well which had really good acoustics on the inside. I don't know if that was because they weren't as big maybe.

>> I think it was because they didn't have a [inaudible].

>> Yeah. It's only later in the Renaissance we'll see when style comes back to a smaller scale, we'll see that every [inaudible] some of the people are thinking about when they're making the building. I don't think we were quite there yet. Here it's more about the visual experience and more about feeling really small because a Gothic Cathedral is designed to make you feel tiny, tiny, tiny in God's big universe. Yeah. You're supposed to feel good about that. You're not supposed to feel bad. You're supposed to feel good. All that light. All that color. But there's a difference in feeling here. When you go into a Romanesque church, you're feeling is you're kind of cocooned, you know, not many windows which keeps it pretty cool. Not a lot of light and color and so the natural posture for prayer is, you know, down like this, inside to yourself, it's more inward. This is much more upward and public and God and everything are up there and you're supposed to have this kind of soaring feeling when you enter the Cathedral because it's so huge and it's so up that everything just kind of feels up. It's a whole different attitude about prayer and the relationship with God then you get from the earlier period. These are designed to pull you upwards, to make you feel like you're being pulled upwards and again many, many people, many, many years to build and different architectural style, different kinds of engineering. All sorts of structures you can see flying buttresses up there in the right hand corner used to support even taller walls with even more windows by exerting, allowing support for the pressure of the walls that might be trying to fall outward by using the buttresses on the side to hold them up so you can make these things really big.

>> Like Notre Dame.

>> Yes like Notre Dame is a good example of a gothic Cathedral. Some of these got really, really crazy too. If you look online if you want to see really wild stuff, type in flamboyant gothic. This style got kind of wedding cakey and sort of out of control at one point. It stopped but there are still a few cathedrals in existence that look really kind of over the top decorative. The big argument, the big shift in thinking is also tied into religion and the use of the intellect. Maybe we can translate our [inaudible] for separating, you know, religion and politics or religion and secular world. We could probably trace it back to here. This idea of we've got logic or reason on one side and then you've got religious faith and spirituality on the other side and how do you balance those. This is a major, major conflict. In the 12th century, so in the 1100s at the time that these cathedrals were starting to go up and the universities which were all based in the Cathedral are beginning to be formed and becoming the centers of intellectual achievement. You have a situation where a university professor and all the university professors would also be ordained, they'd be at the Priest level, would go into a classroom and teach the possibility of applying logic by which I mean Aristotle's logic, coming in again through those crusaders, being Aristotle back from the Arabs who had been working on Aristotle and working on intellectual subjects, bringing that knowledge back in, teaching at the University of Paris, and trying to get faith and reason to work together by having his students look at scripture, look at text written by the early Church fathers and analyzing it using their mind and using Aristotelian logic to analyze scripture. Do you see any problems there, with doing that?

>> [Inaudible].

>> He could, right. Different points of views could come about. They would have to be discussed and dealt with. Yeah?

>> Well, the whole, it's faith. I mean, at a point you know, you just have to believe. You can't prove [inaudible].

>> And he's not so much trying to prove things as much as trying to examine and if you ask Abelard, you know, why you doing this [inaudible], why you doing this, he'd say I want to demonstrate that there is no contradiction between the two, that you can use logic to explain [inaudible].

>> [Inaudible] contradiction.

>> Contradiction. So Abelard liked to start with contradiction and say okay according to this scripture it says this. According to this scripture it says this. How can they both be true? Let's apply Aristotle's logic to this problem and figure out how they can both be true. His assumption is that they were both true but his method was to emphasize the contradiction.

>> The book of Genesis would be a good example.

>> Yes and you could take any book from the old and the new testament and sit down and subject it to this kind of analysis and he liked to do that. He had a woman who he fell in love with totally, she was very, very young and she was by all evidence, his intellectual equal in these matters and able to apply logic as precisely as he could. He gets into a relationship with her. Her uncle does not want her to see this guy. She thinks, the uncle thinks that Peter Abelard is some kind of crazy person basically and he was not alone in that. He ends up losing his testicles over this because her uncle gets mad when he finds out the two of them have secretly married and the uncle sends guys to break into his house. He continues working. He doesn't see her anymore. She goes and becomes a nun which is why she's dressed in nun's clothes here, even though technically they're married and they have letters they go back and forth and you can read them, they're still published I think in a Penguin edition of the letters of these two. Interesting relationship. This is what happens to you when you start messing around with these sort of subjects in the 12th century. You also go up against people like this. Hildegard who wrote the music that I played at the beginning was a mystic. She did not believe you could apply law to the faith at all. It's faith like you say. It comes in from on high. It came to her. She talks to God. You can see pictures of Hildegard with these things coming into her head, visions. St. Bernard of Clairvaux, a famous monk, went out again to Abelard and declared that all of his books should be burned and made sure that happened. It got a whole Church campaign going against Abelard to get him fired and get all his works discredited because faith is faith. It's not based on reason and you don't start applying logic to religion. In other words, in the 12th century it is not okay to mess with this stuff and yet it's in the 12th century that all these new, weird political ideas are coming in. How are you going to counter them? People are using Aristotle's logic to argue for some of these weird Eastern religions. They make more sense to me people start saying and you've got the Church trying to figure out how to counter this. The Friars aren't enough for the intellectuals. The Friars were not particularly intellectual. They were Preachers, they were ordinary people. They walked around and they did a great job at convincing ordinary people but they did a lousy job at convincing smart people because smart people wanted to use logic to talk about this and the Franciscans that really wasn't their job, their job was teaching faith. So what's going to do it? Something is going to have to change inside the University to support Church Orthodoxy and the Church starts to change its view about combining faith with reason and by the time you get to the 13th Century, a man whose doing exactly the same thing as Peter Abelard was doing will become a Saint because the differences between the 12th Century and the 13th Century is that the Church recognizes that the application of logic to faith will help bring the smart people back to their religion. So here's Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas, who's made a Saint by the Church, who appreciated what he did, doing exactly the same thing, taking articles of faith and applying logic to them. In this case the ultimate argument whether God exists or not and he actually starts this document with we can say that God does not exist. Boy can you imagine what would happen to Abelard if he did that? We can say that God does not exist and therefore we can argue on the proposition that God does not exist and he argues it. He says, it must be said that God's existence can be proved in five ways. The first and most obvious way is based on the existence of emotion. It is certain and in fact evident to our senses that the, you know, empiricism, what you can see, that some things in the world are moved. Everything that's moved, however, is moved by something else. Right, what do we call that in modern science?

>> It's a reaction.

>> [Inaudible] and inertia's part of that right, we've got all these things about how motion works, right? We've got all the motion dynamics there. A thing cannot be moved unless that movement is potentially within it. A thing moves something else insofar as it actually exists, for to move something is simply to actualize what is potentially within that thing. So in other words, this thing, this CD case has the potential to move. Is it moving?

>> No.

>> No. What happened? I moved it. I moved it. There has to be a mover for things to move. Things in the world move, ok. A leaf falls off a tree out there. What made that happen?

>> Gravity.

>> Oh stop. What made it happen in the 13th Century?

>> I don't know.

>> Well something right. Nature, whatever you want to call it, it happened. Things that move have to have a mover. We call our mover, we call it gravity. Ok, we can call the gravity mover if you want, you know, we can say gravity is the mover, it's what made the thing move. There has to be something. There can't be nothing. It can't not move for a reason. It has to have a reason. This is called the prime mover argument. It is Aquinas' first argument for the existence of God. We've got plenty more. You can read them all. I've got four more after this and plenty more implications from that. He's using logic, because we can understand it, to explain something about this. He does a darn good job too. He has a really interesting article if you want to read it some day. I got it out when the war started about what a just war is. Using logic and a bible, can you identify what is a just reason to go to war and what is it. [Inaudible]. He did a lot of work, a lot of work. So he gets a little halo. Abelard loses something valuable to him. We've got a transition going on here and what this is called when they put it together like this, logic and faith, right. Do you know the word?

>> Scholasticism.

>> Scholasticism, that was the word from the book. The scholastic method it's called. It's sometimes called the Thomastic Synthesis, you know they named it after him. Same idea. Combination of faith and reason together to understand all of it. Questions on this because this is university level stuff and it was at the time.

>> I read the [inaudible]. They both just basically quote scripture [inaudible]. Like when their logic runs out they're like oh well here's what it says in the bible so there, it's true and like when you're reading some of the earlier philosophers even though later philosophers come out [inaudible] it just makes them sound really silly because it's sort of like almost them admitting that they've run out a logical explanation for things and I don't know, for me, it's like, I guess I'm not living in the 13th Century.

>> Right.

>> Which would probably have made a big difference.

>> Yes.

>> But I wondered why like if people who were questioning, you know, faith in the first place, why don't they question using the scripture to justify [inaudible].

>> But they're not questioning faith, they're trying to validate it. Keep in mind the motive here and that's what they didn't understand about Abelard. That's why I got mad when they burned Abelard's books because they didn't get it, this man clearly said what I'm doing is trying to justify faith, not question it. The method is questioning. The intent is not. So if you're looking for a close, tight, logical argument that could actually defy [inaudible], you're not going to find it with these guys, that's not what they're doing.

>> [Inaudible] you didn't really have atheism.

>> No.

>> They just didn't have it back then.

>> There's something there. Atheism becomes, it's a 19th Century thing, and atheism becomes as much a religion as other religions. The belief in no God is still religious. Yeah. So, yes, atheism is still religious just another way.

>> [Inaudible].

>> No, actually what happens here if you follow this faith and reason argument throughout history, what you see happen is that we will see some of it happen. The plague is going to destroy the [inaudible], it's going to blow it apart. We'll see that happen after next week, we'll see that happen and as a result there will be some freedom here where faith will be sort of liberated to do its own thing and logic will be liberated to do its own thing and logic liberated becomes natural philosophy becomes science becomes the alignment so no we have to break these apart to get to the point you're talking about and that will happen so.

>> [Inaudible]

>> Ok, yeah, did I skip one too?

>> [Inaudible].

>> Yeah, this is the last topic. Some of these weird ideas that come in from the outside include an idea called Mariolitry which is the worship of the Virgin Mary as being somewhat superior to the worship of Jesus or of God himself. It's interesting of course this would come from the east, right, this would come from the old Helenistic area, why, if that [inaudible].

>> [Inaudible].

>> Yes and how religiously was that expressed back in the Helenistic era?

>> [Inaudible].

>> Yes. You had Mariolitry then before there was Mary, right? It was Isis, anybody remember the Goddess Isis?

>> The fertility Goddess, yeah.

>> Based on fertility, all the fertility Goddesses and all the respect, spiritual respect afforded to females and praying to female Goddess Aphrodite, Isis, whatever you want to call her. She comes back again as Mary. And I mentioned this when we talked about Christianity that those elements came into the story of Mary and the baby Jesus so here she is again come back which of course is an icon and you read about icons in the last chapter. Icons were a really big thing in the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Greek Orthodox and the objects themselves, people would pay a high price for them in Western Europe. In Western Europe, of course, with iconicosm [assumed spelling] it was discouraged to have icons and yet the object themselves sold really well so you figure someone's in the line of [inaudible]. If people are willing to buy them, the basic [inaudible] for supply and demand it seems in this case that there would be a lot of icons coming into Western Europe if people wanted them and they did and they paid good money for it. Some of them like these are made with gold leaf on top and are valuable in and of themselves as objects as well as the spiritual pieces and some people would pay a lot. So they start coming in and with them the ideas of the Virgin Mary as being the ultimate example of perfection. They create this idea of the Immaculate Conception. Do you know what that is? What is it?

>> God conceived.

>> Conceived who, see, yes, this is easy to get it mixed up. The Immaculate Conception isn't the Immaculate Conception of Jesus, you know, the thing where Mary got pregnant by God. It's the Immaculate Conception of Mary that she herself was conceived in a sinless way, that her parents are God. That idea comes from this timeframe. Yes, it's not about the conception of Jesus, it's about hers. She gets totally purified and elevated above the entire system and the entire story and the worship of her. She becomes the most popular figure in the Churches. Her alter becomes the one that everybody starts going to and people relate to her in a really emotional way and begin to idolize her that's why they it Mariolitry, the idolatry of Mary, the putting up of Mary into a position where she is worshipped more than God himself. It's an interesting little quirk here but when the Church starts to see this happening what are their choices? What should the Church do if ordinary people are worshipping Mary all over the place? Leslie, do you have a question?

>> No.

>> Okay, go ahead. Yes, John.

>> Was it against Christianity to worship idols or anything other than God?

>> Well, it's against both Judaism and Christianity.

>> Yeah.

>> Right and Islam, all of them. And all of these cultures have [inaudible] yes, so idolatry itself so if you're looking at that, then the Church would have to say we can't, this can't be okay, this is idolatry. Is this a good time to do that, to crack down on an expression of spiritual connection with a Christian figure? Would this be a good time to say, hmm, hmm, no idols. Yeah, it's not a good time. Remember all that heresy coming in and this is the Church ultimately they start off resisting this and ultimately like with the climate, they decide to go with it. Yes?

>> Just by going with it, it can be somewhat controlled?

>> Exactly. Yes. If you oppose it you can't control it unless you want to kill the entire town of Albi. I mean, that's, those are the choices right? So, they, it's easier to co-opt it, isn't it and try to control it and that's what they tried to do. The Catholic Church today, the Virgin Mary is the figure in most Catholic Churches around the world, particularly in Latin America. Interestingly enough there's a cultural twist that comes out of Mariolitry there's a suggestion here, isn't there. If your spiritual connection is to a female there is an element that starts coming into the culture that changes how people view females and you get this idea of the Knights and lady, a chivalric idea that like Mary, a lady should be untouchable, immaculate, set apart from the ordinary filth of life and you develop this culture where Knights worship the lady. They go to fight for the lady. They go off on crusades and take a ladies' handkerchief or item with them to inspire and encourage them. She is put up on a pedestal, untouchable. There's this entire culture that's built around this idea. Do you think that's good for women?

>> Yes.

>> Yes, why?

>> It gives them more power.

>> Hmmm. Does it give them more power? That's a good word. Matt's shaking his head. Why not?

>> Because they're put up on a pedestal, they're not allowed to do anything because they may hurt themselves.

>> Well that's true. They get protected. The idea of protection becomes really crucial. That women are really, they should be up here protected, untouchable, should not be touched. Maybe it would harm them somehow, harm their delicacy or harm the image you have of them. Being put up on a pedestal gives you something but I'm not sure it's power. Yes.

>> It might like begin to [inaudible].

>> Yes. I was thinking, seeing a woman as an object right, could result from this as well. So there's good aspects to it for women in the sense that there is respect, that's worth seeing, right but at the same time, not really control, not really power, more objectification I think and so there's a controversy here of what this actually does to a lady. Now obviously I'm speaking about aristocratic lady, chivalric culture is for aristocratic ladies. The very word lady means an aristocrat, a woman who is one of these big manor estates who has lots of money and lots of servants. Your ordinary woman is not being put up on a pedestal, she's still doing the dishes [inaudible] but this is an ideal and it is related to this Mariolitry ideal. It's also related to troubadours because troubadours were singers. This is where the popular music comes in who were hired by these aristocratic ladies to sing them romantic songs about themselves and about Knightly culture and about the tournaments that began to happen as a result of the decline in the crusades and the need to have an outlet for violence when you really don't want countries fighting each other. You do it pretend in a tournament. So all of these come together in chivalric culture. These troubadours writing and singing songs about how lovely the ladies are. Romantic tales about Knights rescuing ladies from dragons and things. There's lots of rescuing in these tales. Stories about adultery and the complexities of such relationships because although the ideal is that the lady is up on a pedestal, a number of them got dragged down. What happens when that happens. You get stories of King Arthur and his Queen Gwenivere having a relationship with Lancelot that threatens the entire kingdom. You get those kind of tales. All of those are from the chivalric culture and that provides the foundation for all sorts of Western stories and operas and bad musicals and things like that.

>> Bad movies too.

>> And really bad movies of musicals which are probably the worst of all but yes and lousy movies because we don't hold these ideals anymore in our culture. Our culture is based at the moment on a type of equality that wouldn't have made any sense in this context and so they end up adapting out all the elements that would have been appealing at the time to try to appeal to us now. You can't have a helpless lady now. No, you can't really do that. Questions then about the culture which as I say is an upper class kind of thing, very [inaudible]. Ok take.

==== Transcribed by Automatic Sync Technologies ====